A New Trend: Commuting from Richmond to DC for Work with Guest Mimi Montgomery

Housing affordability in the Washington DC metro area has been and continues to be challenging for many people, and though it’s not a new concept to commute into a city for work, the pandemic has made this a trending topic and consideration, especially in the DMV. In this episode, Alison is joined by Mimi Montgomery, the Home & Features Editor at Washingtonian Magazine who recently researched and penned an article about DC area home buyers moving to Richmond, VA for more affordable housing and a lower cost of living. In this episode, they discuss the findings of Mimi’s research and point out some of the potential concerns when considering a 2+ hour move from the place where your job is located.

Subscribe to our show and feel free to reach out to us on The RARE website or directly to Alison with comments and questions: www.theRAREdc.com | alison@theraredc.com IG: @theraredc and Mimi Montgomery Twitter: @mimi_montgom | mmontgomery@washingtonian.com

Hello everyone welcome back Mimi thank0:02you so much for being my guest today0:04thank you for having me actually thank0:07you for being my guest again I should0:08say because uh you were a guest way0:11early on like when I had a co-host0:15um yeah I think it was early 2020 right0:18before or right as the pandemic was0:20happening so yeah yeah slightly0:22different kind of uh time of year now0:26um so today so you have been covering0:30um a wide range of topics in the DMV0:33housing related topics for over five0:35years0:36um and obviously as I just said it0:38they've been both pre-pandemic and post0:42um and you recently penned an article0:43the exact title is is Richmond turning0:46into the new bedroom community for DC0:49workers it was published in the0:51Washingtonian and uh you know you and I0:54talked and thought that this might be an0:55interesting topic to talk about which is0:57you know potentially more than just0:59Richmond but we will focus on it today1:01but commuting into DC1:04um because of you know we're going to1:06get into the reasons but commuting into1:07DC and not really living here1:10um so thank you for coming on and uh1:13talking about this with us today1:15yeah thank you so much for having me1:17again1:18um it's it's a very interesting topic1:21and I think really you know says a lot1:23about the way people are living and1:25working today yeah and you know and I1:27also say before really get into it that1:30um you know anecdotally as a real estate1:31agent or as real estate agents in1:33general we are dealing with um it's not1:36that we don't do research but it's more1:38based on numbers it's based on stats1:40potentially but you are really going in1:42and doing research and speaking to1:44people post pre-post kind of1:47transactions you're getting lots of1:49different opinions not just from one1:51brokerage so I really appreciate reading1:54your articles when you you know I know1:56that there's research behind it you're1:58I'm sure you're going to mention how you2:00got the statistics that you got for this2:01article so it's um it's it's a different2:04take on some of these real estate Trends2:06and things that are happening2:08um so today obviously2:10um when we're talking about Richmond2:13you know I I knew that this may be2:15happening but not to the degree that2:17that you reported on yeah yeah yeah2:20definitely it seems like it's it's a big2:23a big thing that's happening you know2:24more so compared to previous years for2:26sure yeah so like before we again keep2:29going into Richmond like something2:31that's been this is not like a New2:33Concept right like people have been2:35doing this for decades like my dad I2:38grew up in Albany New York my dad2:40occasionally had to go to New York City2:41again occasionally but he had to go to2:43New York City it was it's a two and a2:45half hour drive2:46or train ride luckily the train is I2:49think because Albany is the capital the2:51train was running regularly it was very2:54predictable driving to New York City as2:57a whole thing2:58um so you know he did that3:01um and if he had to go down once a week3:02for example I think we still would have3:04lived around the Albany area because it3:06would have made sense for for multiple3:08reasons3:09um and I know people who have done that3:10from like the Philly area3:12um or people who drive but you can take3:15the train depending on where you are in3:16New Jersey so it's not that this content3:19this concept is new it's that I in3:22particular with Richmond I don't think3:24it's uh an A to B that I would have3:27really put together right so3:30um so anyway3:32um and I don't know anywhere on the west3:33coast where this happens it seems maybe3:34to be like a mainly east coast thing but3:36uh so you know why don't we just start3:39talking a little bit about the what you3:41found out and how this article started3:43and uh yeah we'll take it from there3:46yeah totally well I I have to give a3:48shout out to axios Richmond because I3:51first heard about this because they had3:52reported on some of the data that I3:54ended up looking at3:55um so the University of Virginia3:58um you know did some research and they4:00found that4:02um there was a 36 increase in the4:05average number of Northern Virginia4:07transplants to Richmond4:09um in between 2020 and 21 21 compared to4:13in years past4:16um and at the same time you know4:18ridership uh via the train between DC4:21and Richmond had increased during covid4:24um and Richmond areas population grew4:27faster than Northern Virginia's for it4:29for two years in a row which was the4:31first time that that had happened since4:32they had been4:34um tracking this data4:36um so you know there were there were4:37these numbers like pointing to this4:38happening and to your point sure this4:40isn't a new thing like of course people4:41have lived in Richmond and you know4:43worked for dc-based companies before but4:46it seems like you know due to the4:49prevalence of remote and hybrid work now4:51like more people are taking advantage of4:54this than previously just because4:56they're able to4:58um4:58and you know so the the numbers sort of5:01skyrocketed during during covet and so I5:03you know I had the data and but then I5:06needed to sort of like get the color and5:08the anecdotes so I reached out to some5:11Richmond agents to see if you know what5:14the numbers were saying sort of lined up5:16with what they were saying and they were5:17like yeah this is like an explosion and5:20this trend uh you know during covid tons5:23of people coming down from Northern5:25Virginia and what's interesting is one5:27of them told me is that5:29um5:30she saw it was people who had no5:33connection to Richmond coming down here5:34whereas before she was like I would get5:36a lot of Northern Virginia people who5:38you know maybe had a kid that went to5:39VCU in Richmond or like had family in5:41Richmond and finally were you know5:43making the move down there but she was5:44like now it's just people who really5:47want the the lower cost of living or you5:50know the lower cost of property in5:52Richmond and are coming down here5:53because you know now they only have to5:55be in the office5:56you know once a week or once a month or5:59maybe never and so you know whereas6:02before they wouldn't ever have thought6:04about moving there because they had6:06these dc-based jobs now it's like an6:08option for them6:09um yeah so and then I talked to a couple6:11people who who made the move themselves6:13and were doing it for exactly those6:14reasons6:15um you know lower cost of living6:18um and more space more bang for their6:20Buck6:21um and yeah I mean it's definitely it's6:24definitely a thing that's happening6:26yeah I'm curious so how many people did6:28you talk to who did the move um in this6:30article I can't remember is it like6:31three or five I talked to three yes6:34um and so they what the agents told me6:38is that most of the people that they're6:39seeing doing this are either first-time6:41buyers or people like young families who6:44like need more space and it's just6:46really expensive to get that here6:49um I think the the average uh sales6:51price for a house in the DC area is like6:54200 000 more than it is in Richmond6:58um and you know one big thing that like7:01this is sort of like an anecdotal thing7:02that I found that you know necessarily7:04wouldn't have been like reflected in7:05data is that the reason why so many of7:08these Northern Virginia people are7:10looking to Richmond as opposed to just7:12like looking out further like to a loud7:14and County where you know on the7:16outskirts where you can get cheaper7:18housing is because you know they can7:20still have like a lot of the amenities7:21that they like about Northern Virginia7:23in Richmond right like you know they can7:25walk to to restaurants walk to bars like7:29there's concerts there's plays one woman7:31I spoke with was like we really told our7:34agent that we wanted to be able to walk7:35to breweries from our house like that7:36was like really important to them and7:38it's like something that I guess they7:40could do in their house in Alexandria7:41and they can still do that in Richmond7:42you know whereas if you move out to like7:44Round Hill Virginia like you can't7:46really you're not walking to like a bar7:47out there7:49um so it's like you know the trappings7:51of an urban life you know the kind of7:53life that they have here in Northern7:54Virginia7:56um but it's just like you know7:57significantly cheaper in Richmond yeah I8:00mean I've talked about on the show and I8:02know you've reported on the fact that8:04people have uh especially in the first8:07year of the pandemic they bought houses8:09more like Mountain Homes or places on a8:12lake places that are kind of more8:13vacation homey8:15um as a place to go and work because8:18they again didn't have to be in the8:20office but that's a completely different8:23feel and not what we're talking about8:24here because this is like literally City8:26to city and yes Richmond sound is big8:29and potentially doesn't have quite as8:31much but yeah I mean it's kind of small8:34City living which is kind of funny8:35because I feel like everybody says DC is8:37a small city which yeah whatever there's8:39not just big yeah right like yeah New8:41York's huge and DC's you know medium or8:44whatever but um but yeah so it's it is8:47interesting because8:49if I'm being totally honest when I first8:51read when I first read your article I8:52was like like I I'm a city girl like I8:55don't want to live in Richmond but then8:56I thought about how like now again it8:59was probably five years ago so it's9:00definitely pre-pandemic and a couple9:02years before that but my friend and I9:04drove down to Richmond because we wanted9:06to look at all the street art there's a9:07ton of art there was at the I can't9:10remember the name of the the museum9:12there they've got to really grow amazing9:14Museum yeah yeah and they had an amazing9:17um exhibit that we really wanted to see9:19and then a year after that there was a9:22concert I wanted to see so I drove down9:24for the night saw the concert and drove9:27back you know pretty intense amount of9:29driving but still like it's you know but9:32it my point is more that they have those9:33things there9:35um maybe not to the greater degree but9:38it's interesting because you're talking9:39about Northern Virginia a lot of the9:41time and while you're speaking versus DC9:43and if you live in like Old Town it's9:46kind of like a mini City in a city and I9:48can see how the the you know going from9:50Old Town to Richmond or some areas of9:53Northern Virginia is really an easy9:56transition9:57yeah totally yeah and two and like going10:00off of that10:01um I asked some of the agents this I was10:03like you know are you seeing mostly10:05people from Virginia DC Maryland and10:08they were like not Maryland really it's10:10mostly either DC proper or Northern10:12Virginia just because I guess like the10:15thought of you know if you're in10:17Maryland I guess people just want to you10:19know continue going north and maybe move10:20further out into the Maryland burbs I10:22you know there's no really data to sort10:24of speak to that but it is interesting10:25it seems to be mostly like for the10:26Virginia folks in DC yeah well or if10:29you're already in if you're a city10:31person and you're already living in10:33Maryland or you know you're close to DC10:35from that angle maybe you're considering10:37Baltimore10:38um yeah and Baltimore has a really10:40really predictable great train that runs10:43in between the mark train so we're going10:46to get into the cons in a second10:47potentially of being in Richmond but10:50that's certainly a pro of doing the10:52Baltimore DC connection and even10:55Baltimore I mean this I know because I10:57really love Baltimore our Baltimore seen10:58an uptick in their prices too because I11:01would assume because of some of what11:03we're talking about right now the cost11:06of living is just tremendously lower and11:08Baltimore is another really big city11:09that has a robust you know entertainment11:11scene restaurant scene11:13et cetera et cetera lots of universities11:14there11:16um so so yeah11:18um okay so I do think it's important for11:20us to talk about11:22the pitfalls potentially I guess that11:25could exist here11:27um and because I mean at the end of the11:29day Richmond is I think they say just11:31over two hours south of here right11:34the world depends on traffic of course11:37but okay so let's talk about that11:39so well well first let's talk about11:41public transportation so public11:42transportation they do have a train you11:45know Amtrak does run11:47um and you know I hear that there's11:49going to be a high-speed service though11:50I don't know what the timeline is of11:52that but I mean everything everything11:54involving any kind of construction is11:56never on time so whatever it is it's not11:58it's not right now when we're talking12:00about this increase in uh people moving12:03to Richmond so you know the Amtrak12:05exists and um I was like well what12:08before we recorded this episode I wanted12:10to see like what kind of cost that would12:11add right so if you're going let's just12:14even say once a week then Amtrak is 5012:18round trip at its cheapest so that's12:20like the lowest level seat after 2412:23hours you know no refund kind of thing12:26so maybe you're supposed to be on a12:27Thursday you buy your your you know trip12:30the week in advance and then they decide12:31you've got to be there on Friday you're12:33losing that fifty dollars so but let's12:34assume it always goes to plan and then12:37you've got to park your car because12:38you're almost definitely going to have a12:39car12:40when you're living in Richmond and maybe12:42you have it as a backup in case you12:44can't take the train and that's ten12:46dollars a day parking when you're at the12:47train station so that's 240 a month12:51which if we start talking about12:52different areas so let's back up for two12:55seconds you said the the average price12:57of a house in DC versus Richmond there's12:59like a 200 000 difference I would say13:02that you know they're averaging all of13:04the different areas of DC so depending13:06on where you're looking you know and if13:08you were in like Northern Virginia then13:10that's got to be you know like Clarendon13:12or Arlington and Alexandria in general I13:15would I would argue that it's well13:16beyond that13:18um and the and the difference in13:20mortgage payments of course13:21would be astronomically different now if13:23people are buying now just because of13:24interest rates blah blah blah we won't13:26get into that but anyway 240 a month13:28isn't nothing and that's if you're only13:30going in once a week and I know plenty13:32of people who are going in twice a week13:34to the office right so now we're up to13:37you know 50013:39um which you know sure maybe it's a13:42write-off if that's how you do your13:43taxes and stuff like that we did an13:45episode on taxes recently we could pull13:46Ted back in and ask him but you know so13:48so at the end of the day13:51that's not cheap I would say sure yeah13:54totally and I mean like to your point I13:56think that's like something that people13:57will have to factor in it's like are you13:59going to take the train I think I think14:00depending on the day you can get like a14:02one-way ticket there for like 15 bucks14:04but I think that's like if you time it14:05like really you know well14:08um or are you going to like sit in 9514:11traffic which I mean like I have made14:14the drive to Richmond a lot of times14:15before I live in Alexandria if you time14:16it right from Alexandria you can get14:18there like in an hour and 40 but you're14:20like waking up at the crack of dawn14:21otherwise you know people who have made14:24that drive know the Fredericksburg like14:26fiery Inferno it just like takes your14:29soul out of your body every time you14:30like hit that like standstill traffic14:34um so I or you know you could like spend14:36well up to like three hours each way in14:38the car maybe even more if there's14:39really bad traffic14:41um but you know so I one of the women I14:43interviewed who uh purchased home in14:45Richmond like you know she will have to14:47come into Alexandria for her job she14:50said like once a week and like I asked14:52her I was like you know have you thought14:53about like you know your commute and14:55she's like yeah she's like I'm gonna try14:57to I'm gonna try to drive I'm gonna try14:59to train but she's like the one of the15:02great things about you know the sort of15:04this new normal that we're in is I think15:05that people's working hours are like a15:07little bit more flexible you know know15:09I've even noticed this my own job it's15:10like no longer like you have to be there15:13until five on the days during the office15:14like people get it like if you want to15:16leave at 3 30 now to like be traffic so15:17I think you know she's hoping for like a15:19bit more flexibility in her day that way15:21and also she was like honestly it's15:24worth it for to be able to like afford a15:27house like the kind of house that I want15:28and the kind of area that I want with15:30like the kind of like trappings and15:31amenities she's like it's worth it to15:33get a foot in the door you know building15:35that kind of like wealth and whatnot for15:37having to drive to Alexandria like once15:39a week so yeah yeah15:42um I was you said something interesting15:44the building the wealth and something I15:46didn't look into is you know are you15:48going to you're probably not going to15:49build your Equity as fast and judgment15:53as you are here15:55um it's very hard to plan for what15:57Equity you'll have in a house right15:58because you just don't know what will15:59happen the house and the economy and16:00blah blah blah blah but yeah I mean16:03how's buying a house and having Equity16:05is buying a house and having having16:06Equity it's generally a positive thing16:08regardless uh okay so back to the the16:11maybe cons depending on how you look at16:14it I mean yeah maybe you don't mind16:15sitting in the car for six hours a day16:16you're listening to this podcast of16:18course you're listening you're listening16:19to podcasts or it's your time to relax16:22you know you are really just like zoning16:24out listening to music okay16:27um16:27but yeah 95 is awful uh so then there's16:31also16:32you know there's there's some social16:35social things I think that start to come16:37into this which is16:38you're starting to change the dynamic of16:41a city when you when DC Maryland or not16:43Maryland DC Northern Virginia buyers are16:46going down there and kind of scooping up16:48I think people might say the properties16:50down there16:52um the question is you know what is that16:54doing to the local economy what is that16:57doing to the feel of the city you know17:00like I could see how people might be17:03a little resentful of people coming in17:06from other places and increasing17:09property values because the competition17:10is now getting higher17:13um and people who you know maybe it's17:15not once a week maybe it's three times a17:16week they're going to the city17:18um and they're not there they're not17:20really participating in the in the city17:23so much17:24um so17:26I don't know did anybody speak to that17:28because I always think about those17:29things yeah and I think that's like a17:32really important and Fair Point17:34um so the the Agents of course you know17:38we're like pretty positive about the17:39trend overall17:41um but you know they they did you know17:44admit that there there is definitely the17:47definite like issue of jacking up prices17:49in Richmond because you have people17:50coming from a more expensive area who17:52you know if they've owned a home might17:53be coming in before buying power17:55um or just you know more demand17:57increases you know prices in Richmond in17:59general18:00um so that's definitely like you know an18:02issue to think about18:03um and then there's the whole sort of18:05like just basic18:06social aspect of it right like there18:09were these bumper stickers I don't know18:10if people still have them but I know at18:11one point they were a thing that said18:13don't Nova my RVA and people like in18:16Richmond had them in on their bumper18:19stickers you know basically being like18:20stay out of our city18:23um and so you know I think there are18:24probably some people that would not be18:26like super happy about this I actually18:27got a text message from one of my18:29friends who is from Richmond and he18:31lives in Richmond and he was like I just18:32saw your article and he was like he was18:35like please don't like have all these18:37people read it and start moving down he18:39was like we already have like seen like18:40a huge increase in on people coming here18:43from kobit not he said not just from DC18:46from other cities as well and like18:47jacking up prices and gobbling up the18:49real estate so I definitely think that18:50there are some people who probably would18:52be you know adverse to seeing this trend18:54play out more18:56um but then again of course I'm sure18:57that there are people who are like happy18:58to have you know more folks moving into19:00the area uh frequenting more restaurants19:02and you know businesses and all that19:04good stuff19:06um19:06but yeah and then let's also you have to19:08think about things like you know a lot19:10of the things that people are excited to19:12maybe leave behind in Northern Virginia19:13like you know higher prices just for19:16cost of living stuff or like traffic you19:19know that could end up trickling down to19:21Richmond if more and more folks start19:23moving there you know so at what point19:25does does it sort of like start the tide19:27starts to rise and it sort of like19:29matches a lot of those things about19:30Northern Virginia19:32um yeah to I mean to your point about19:34the traffic before and leaving at Good19:35Times well if you've got more people who19:38are leaving at Good Times you know it's19:40going to increase traffic all the time19:41and I've noticed that you know like19:44um you were saying that since covid has19:46happened since the pandemic happened19:48people have a little bit more leeway and19:50when they leave work19:52and you know I have been in real estate19:54for close to a decade and so I obviously19:56do a lot of showings and I used to time19:58my showing so that we were I was if it20:01was in Maryland or Virginia I was20:02leaving before 3 30 so that I could at20:05least get there before traffic and if I20:07get traffic on the way home that's fine20:08but being late to a showing is like20:10horrifying to me and so I don't want my20:12client to get there before I do and the20:15thing is like I have noticed a massive20:17uptick in um when I'm going to Virginia20:19specifically and getting on 95 or20:22getting on you know 395 first20:24um at 3 30.20:26um so this is a lot of like what we're20:29talking about here is these things are20:30increasing because of the world we live20:33in right now post pandemic right right20:36yeah and so you know like as you're20:39calculating some of well we'll talk20:40about one more thing one thing I don't20:42think people can really20:44understand understand excuse me or20:46predict right now is what if return to20:48work restrictions and rules change20:51and I've been saying that from day one20:53because you know20:55listen I would love to be able to live20:58on a lake and you know my job doesn't21:00allow that obviously but and and21:03predictably know when I'll be working21:06and where I'll be working assuming I21:07stay in that job you know for an21:09extended period of time but I already21:12work restrictions and roles have changed21:14unless you had a work from home job21:16before and your job is exclusively a21:19work from home job21:21uh how are you going to predict what21:23your employer does I mean I'm sure21:24you've reported on the fact that you've21:26got so much empty commercial real estate21:28space right now21:30um to the point where they're thinking21:31about their their planning on making21:33some of that commercial space into21:35residential space so that's a whole21:36different topic we could talk about but21:39um the fact is yeah I mean you just21:43don't know21:44yeah yeah I mean that's that's a totally21:46valid point as well21:48um21:49and I mean I wish I had a crystal ball I21:52could tell you what it's going to happen21:54um but I mean I do think just and this21:57is you know I'm sort of hypothesizing22:00here and you know making my own22:02predictions but just based on everything22:03that I've read I do think that22:06for the most part at least hybrid work22:08will be like a permanent fixture for the22:12majority of white collar workers going22:13forward in perpetuity22:16um and so you know it will still22:19continue even if you do have to go go22:21back into the office you know one or two22:24days a week I do think that we are in a22:26very different world than we were in in22:28early 2020. you know what I mean and so22:31that does that sort of change and just22:35you know22:37the way that we that we live our daily22:39lives has really you know opened a lot22:41of doors for people that I just think22:43that you know will continue to be you22:46know a bigger and more sought after22:48option for people going forward as far22:50as where they live you know sure I mean22:52I think interestingly well obviously22:54there's a lot of federal jobs here even22:55during the pandemic you had people with22:57clearances who are working from home22:59um and I've seen that's where I've seen23:01a huge switch is like okay now you can23:03come back in the office we've got you23:04know like technology that exists in our23:08buildings that are you know for safety23:10reasons for security reasons you know23:13those people are probably not as apt to23:16move outside of the area right I would23:19say unless there's a changing technology23:21unless all of a sudden everybody can23:23have some robust security system you23:26know in their own homes and of course23:28that could make that you know group of23:31employees able to have more hybrid work23:34as well23:36um so yeah23:38and to your point about the federal23:40workers I mean since there hasn't been23:41like you know sort of an exact mandate23:43on exactly what they're going to do with23:45federal workers as far as being back in23:46the office23:48um you know I think it would be really23:49interesting to see like if there is sort23:51of like a definite this is what we're23:52doing like if you know then those people23:55are able to make those the kinds of23:56decisions that other folks have been23:58able to make since they sort of have24:00:00like more feedback on exactly what their24:02:00schedules are going to look like because24:03:00you know I mean the whole federal24:05:00workers thing is like a big reason why24:06:00downtown DC is so empty right now and24:08:00all those office spaces are sitting24:09:00empty right because they don't have any24:11:00sort of like mandate yet24:13:00um and so you know once we sort of a lot24:16:00of these businesses began to solidify24:17:00their exact24:19:00um routines going forward you know I24:21:00think that we might even maybe see more24:23:00people off for this thing as they sort24:25:00of know like exactly what their their24:26:00day-to-day is going to look like sure24:29:00all right well I'm not sure I have much24:31:00more I'm not sure if you have anything24:32:00else you want to add uh anything24:34:00interesting tidbits came out of this24:37:00I mean I just think it's like super24:39:00fascinating I'm really really interested24:40:00in you know the way that we are sort of24:43:00like defining this new normal going24:45:00forward and just the the impacts that it24:47:00has on you know how we live our lives24:50:00um and obviously I mean talking about24:53:00this issue you know touches on just the24:56:00the the lack of affordable housing in DC24:58:00and you know crazy Rising home prices25:01:00across the nation um and it's it's like25:04:00a big issue I mean people want25:06:00comfortable like you know places to live25:09:00where they can have like space to now25:11:00work and live and do all the things that25:13:00you know used to do in three different25:15:00spots and now we're doing a lot of it25:16:00just in one spot25:18:00um and so I mean it's uh it's we're25:19:00talking about sort of like a localized25:22:00sort of story but it really has25:24:00um you know whiffs of all of these25:27:00different issues that are sort of uh25:29:00really plaguing people across the25:31:00country so it's it's super interesting25:33:00yeah well thanks for reporting on these25:36:00things and um you know I'll be25:38:00interested to see kind of what topics25:40:00you're I mean I'm always interested to25:41:00see what topics you'll be covering but25:43:00yeah maybe you'll have some follow-up on25:45:00this at some point and uh yeah and happy25:47:00to have you back as a guest again if uh25:50:00we have something to talk about so thank25:51:00you so much and we will see we'll see25:54:00all you soon25:56:00yes thanks so much